don't click here

Can Modern Sonic Be Saved?

Clouder

The one and only
Aug 29, 2017
49
33
28
Gee, this is totally gonna be a calm and respectable thread/s

So, now with Mania and it's inevitable success, one has to wonder how Modern Sonic will fare in the near future, especially since Forces doesn't have even a tenth of the hype or excitement as Mania had. My question is: is it worth keeping the Modern formula around at all, with it's odd redesigns and large ensemble of characters, as opposed to just making trilogy-based games like Mania with the original designs and a drastically smaller cast?



 
  • Like
Reactions: That Fucking Fish

ArcaniaCQ

Marble Zone
Aug 29, 2017
41
23
83
26
Sweden
I think Modern Sonic will be still a thing whether we like it or not? I am really not feeling like modern will do well and tbh I think people will compare Mania to Forces and people will say that Mania is better then Forces however you put it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clouder

Murasaki

Co-Creator of Sonic Utopia
Aug 29, 2017
26
45
38
34
Even though I tolerated the modern character design for a long time, I've never enjoyed the boost gameplay. I feel no engagement from a roller-coaster simulator. I want to be in control of the character, and have plenty of room to play with the core mechanics. My favourite part of Unleashed was slowing down to enjoy the scenery at my own pace. I also loved doing side-quests for the townspeople.

I like pretty much all the characters, but because of the limited scope of the gameplay, none of them ever have a chance to really shine.

Adventure 1 is the closest Sonic has ever gotten to my ideal gameplay format.
 

Mors

maryo flashback
Aug 29, 2017
40
41
78
25
Kebabland
www.mors-games.com
Yea.
I think Boost has a lot of potential. I really liked boost as a concept but it seems like all games featuring just keep making dumb mistakes preventing it from being as good as it could've been.

Unleashed was an okay start, but it was way too linear and way too "Boost 2 Win". The levels were simply based on quick reactions and memorization. It felt more like I was playing a racing game than a platformer. Colors was both a step in right and wrong direction. It added more platforming and slowed the game's overall step down, so the game didn't feel like a racing game. However, all platforming sections in the game were 2D and they were too blocky for Sonic standards. They were fun and overall well designed, but generic. It also doesn't help that you just hold up for more than 75% of 3D sections. Generations is their best attempt so far. It's much less "Boost 2 Win" and rollercoastery than Unleashed, and has some actual 3D platforming, however they still relied on 2D sections and corridors way too much. Then there's Forces. The level design seems to be a complete downgrade, I really don't think I have to explain why.

What they should do is getting what worked best in Generations and making the entire game based around that. Like Seaside Hill's 3D sections. That level was great. It had several alternate paths, one of them even featuring a small bobsled racing section. There were corridors, but they weren't common enough to make the level feel like a rollercoaster ride. There were also several sections with actual 3D platforming and it was overall pretty fun. Crisis City also had some fun 3D platforming going on, even though the level was the most linear one in the entire game. How Green Hill mixed 2D sections with 3D was great too. The transitions felt really smooth, unlike every single other level in the game. Combine that with more momentum based movement, less boost (not as much as Colors tho), more 2.5D like 2D sections, less automated sections, better controls, a bit more open level design and BAM, you got the pretty much perfect boost game. It really isn't that hard.

Or just make a game that plays like Adventure 1's Sonic sections, but maybe less linear. That would work too. Again, it isn't too hard to make a 3D Sonic game. It's not like Sonic can't work with 3D. Just Sonic Team likes to fuck up things.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clouder

Clouder

The one and only
Aug 29, 2017
49
33
28
Honestly, I liked Modern Sonic in the Adventure era. Despite it's flaws, the concept was a good foundation to build a series on, in my opinion. The story, the different characters and gameplay styles, the open hubs and different zones, and especially the music-- I loved it all! I'm not really fond of the boost gameplay, myself-- I liked it better when new skills had to be found and collected.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kosyne and Murasaki

Murasaki

Co-Creator of Sonic Utopia
Aug 29, 2017
26
45
38
34
Honestly, I liked Modern Sonic in the Adventure era. Despite it's flaws, the concept was a good foundation to build a series on, in my opinion. The story, the different characters and gameplay styles, the open hubs and different zones, and especially the music-- I loved it all! I'm not really fond of the boost gameplay, myself-- I liked it better when new skills had to be found and collected.
One thing I think may be important to distinguish is what people mean by "Modern". I generally consider it to be Unleashed and onward, with everything before it as the Adventure era. I liked the Adventure designs pretty well, whereas the designs from Unleashed onward have this... sterile, corporate feel. Hard to explain, but it seems like in the compromise between '06, Adventure, and Mario-influenced styles, the design itself was compromised.
 

SlumberGlss

Nintender? Who's that?
Aug 29, 2017
52
16
43
If iizuka takes over?
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Iizuka doesn't know how to make/direct sonic games. Hes the one who thought Wisps and Big was a FANTASTIC idea!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clouder

SlumberGlss

Nintender? Who's that?
Aug 29, 2017
52
16
43
Let me rephrase that.
Iizuka is a horrible director
not a bad game designer.
Hes supervising/helping the direction for Forces
i generally think he should take a break from directing/designing sonic games and see how it goes.
Iizuka changed Windy Valley (the beta version is SO much better imo), He thought of Big being a good idea, He even thought of Wisps being in Forces, Colors, Gens, and Lost World.
 

Perfect Chaos Zero

Green Hill Zone
Apr 26, 2017
28
32
28
@Nintender

If iizuka takes over?
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Iizuka doesn't know how to make/direct sonic games. Hes the one who thought Wisps and Big was a FANTASTIC idea!
Not to be rude sir and not to be hating, but I'm afraid you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Like I said, not hating or trying to be mean here but duuuuuude that's so not cool. You're bitching about things in a completely out of context and very ignorant manner. First of all, who do you think pushed to get Sonic Mania made? Iizuka. Whose got the backs of us fan gamers so that SEGA legal doesn't drive a broom stick up our ass? Iizuka. We are allowed to continue to exist, as a community, as a group of fan gamers, because he makes sure we don't get stabbed in the back. That's our homie4lyfe right there.

Who looked at Sonic's fucked up 3D game play, went "yeah we need to try SOMETHING to make this interesting again", enter Sonic Colors which AT TIME OF RELEASE THANK YOU, was one of the best Sonic games in years. Kinda hard to do what you want with a series when it's a mascot and you happen to be a front man of a mascot team. You think Iizuka was okay with the way Rivals or Riders turned out? You think he enjoys working the projects he's worked on suddenly wrested away by a corporate suit and pushed onto market before it's ready? You think he has control over that side of shit? He doesn't. He gets told "Make Sonic ride a skate board or something", we get riders cause it's the best the man or anyone really, could of done with that, given the ridiculously short time frame.

Like I get that Sonic games haven't been great out them lately, but it's certainly not Iizuka pushing shit out a year before it's ready and I can't just sit there and let you rag on our homie like that, ya' know?

First of all, I'm going to point to this.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/7/7/8906275/sega-ceo-sonic-boom-console-betrayed-trust - note the 2015. Forces was already in development. by this point for a year or so.

Enter Atlus.

Atlus, acquired by Sega in 2013, has helped the publisher's console footing somewhat. "As far as the Western market goes, we learned a lot from Atlus," Satomi said. "If we can make a title with proper quality, I believe there's a good chance for it to do well even in the West for players that like to play Japanese games."

But console titles most closely identified with Sega have been disappointments, particularly last year's Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric on Wii U, the biggest critical failure in the 24-year Sonic the Hedgehog series. "Sega in the 1990s was known for its brand, but after that, we've lost trust, and we were left with nothing but reputation," Satomi said. "For this reason, we'd like to win back the customers' trust, and become a brand once again."
Soon after, in the wake of Atlus' influence shaking shit up quite a bit, Iizuka , armed with Tax's proposal, pushed for Mania to be a thing. The Sonic game he always wanted to see made, but the execs insisted that classic sonic was dead, no one liked that sorta game play and so on, so he never got to make another Sonic and Knuckles like he said he always wanted. Then you got Atlus metaphorically poking their heads in the door, talking some mad shit while waving all Persona money around. As explained above, SEGA's been redoing quite a bit of their shit based on Atlus' advice, as even their CEO directly stated. Soooooo we got Sonic Mania! Thanks Iizuka! You'll notice Atlus is in Mania's credits too.

On saving Modern Sonic:
Forces is going to be like the before times. The dark days. It started before Atlus came in.

Mania by the way, is an example of the kind of shit we're going to get thanks to Atlus giving artillery support for people like Taxman. It started development AFTER the Atlus acquisition.

Before Atlus:
maxresdefault.jpg


After Atlus:
170414_soft_2.jpg


See a bit of... difference?

As for 3D modern Sonic doomed? Does he stand a chance? Well, Forces isn't going to work out, at least I don't personally think so. That's okay though. Because next game, we'll have a Sonic Team, with people like Tax, Stealth, Brad, Hunter, Jameson, Aaron, etc. at his side, actually able to take part in things because of the culture Mania and Atlus are starting to create in the company. A culture of quality. Can Sonic Team as it was for Forces dev to save modern Sonic?

tenor.gif

As they were, Sonic Team was too tied down by corporate bullshit and having to follow the guidelines of what the suits felt a "Sonic game must be". They hand Iizuka a list of bullshit he has to comply with and he's gotta do it cause it's his job. It also results in well, bad Sonic games, but not because of his lack of effort or skill. You try shitting out Sonic Riders in that 1 year dev window. You gotta be kidding me blaming the guy that's had OUR backs and was the dude all stoked for Mania, did all the stuff to help make it happen, you trippin' son.

But the NEXT 3D Sonic game? A Sonic Team and Iizuka whose chains have been broken by Atlus and Mania's huge success? With people like the Mania team and Atlus helping out? Imagine if you will, a refreshed modern Sonic, with graphics and stylization ala Persona 5

Imagine a modern Sonic, with the animation and art stylings of Morgana from Persona 5



Now pair that with Atlus' understanding of 3D space that we've seen in games like Catherine.

Mix in some Taxman n Stealth for game play consultation, Brad Flick and Hunter for production styling and design?

Do you see this shit?
ZORRO.jpg

Look at that smug expression on that mother fucker. Priceless, 10/10.

Atlus baby. They are our best shot to save modern Sonic. Together with a now free to make awesome shit Iizuka, his chains broken because no one wants to fuck with anything Atlus touches for fear of the massive back lash from Persona/Atlus fans? They could make the best 3D Sonic game ever made, by far.

All we need, is for Forces to fail. Miserably. As badly as possible. That will force the execs to listen. They won't be able to ignore the results of Mania and it's sales numbers.

So the real answer? Can modern Sonic be saved? Absolutely.

Sonic Forces just needs to fail. Miserably. That will start the chain reaction.

I'm not trying to hate on Forces mind you, I don't "want it to fail" out of some weird vindictive fanboyisims or anything. I just truly believe that it'll steer the series in a vastly superior direction, the worse it does. So as much as I usually want Sonic projects to be successful, in Forces case, not so much. The more the scales are tipped in the favor Tax n team, Atlus and Iizuka's aspirations VS the incredibly bad decisions often made out of pride or attempts at social posturing that 'the suits' keep pulling on us, the brighter Sonic's future. It wasn't because of Iizuka for example, that we didn't get a proper Saturn era Sonic game. It's the suits you guys. If Forces fails, they'll have no choice but to let the artists that are clearly bringing in the money finally do their fucking jobs again.
 
Last edited:

segafan13

Green Hill Zone
Aug 29, 2017
11
5
13
21
@Nintender



Not to be rude sir and not to be hating, but I'm afraid you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Like I said, not hating or trying to be mean here but duuuuuude that's so not cool. You're bitching about things in a completely out of context and very ignorant manner. First of all, who do you think pushed to get Sonic Mania made? Iizuka. Whose got the backs of us fan gamers so that SEGA legal doesn't drive a broom stick up our ass? Iizuka. We are allowed to continue to exist, as a community, as a group of fan gamers, because he makes sure we don't get stabbed in the back. That's our homie4lyfe right there.

Who looked at Sonic's fucked up 3D game play, went "yeah we need to try SOMETHING to make this interesting again", enter Sonic Colors which AT TIME OF RELEASE THANK YOU, was one of the best Sonic games in years. Kinda hard to do what you want with a series when it's a mascot and you happen to be a front man of a mascot team. You think Iizuka was okay with the way Rivals or Riders turned out? You think he enjoys working the projects he's worked on suddenly wrested away by a corporate suit and pushed onto market before it's ready? You think he has control over that side of shit? He doesn't. He gets told "Make Sonic ride a skate board or something", we get riders cause it's the best the man or anyone really, could of done with that, given the ridiculously short time frame.

Like I get that Sonic games haven't been great out them lately, but it's certainly not Iizuka pushing shit out a year before it's ready and I can't just sit there and let you rag on our homie like that, ya' know?

First of all, I'm going to point to this.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/7/7/8906275/sega-ceo-sonic-boom-console-betrayed-trust - note the 2015. Forces was already in development. by this point for a year or so.

Enter Atlus.



Soon after, in the wake of Atlus' influence shaking shit up quite a bit, Iizuka , armed with Tax's proposal, pushed for Mania to be a thing. The Sonic game he always wanted to see made, but the execs insisted that classic sonic was dead, no one liked that sorta game play and so on, so he never got to make another Sonic and Knuckles like he said he always wanted. Then you got Atlus metaphorically poking their heads in the door, talking some mad shit while waving all Persona money around. As explained above, SEGA's been redoing quite a bit of their shit based on Atlus' advice, as even their CEO directly stated. Soooooo we got Sonic Mania! Thanks Iizuka! You'll notice Atlus is in Mania's credits too.

On saving Modern Sonic:
Forces is going to be like the before times. The dark days. It started before Atlus came in.

Mania by the way, is an example of the kind of shit we're going to get thanks to Atlus giving artillery support for people like Taxman. It started development AFTER the Atlus acquisition.

Before Atlus:
View attachment 187


After Atlus:
View attachment 188


See a bit of... difference?

As for 3D modern Sonic doomed? Does he stand a chance? Well, Forces isn't going to work out, at least I don't personally think so. That's okay though. Because next game, we'll have a Sonic Team, with people like Tax, Stealth, Brad, Hunter, Jameson, Aaron, etc. at his side, actually able to take part in things because of the culture Mania and Atlus are starting to create in the company. A culture of quality. Can Sonic Team as it was for Forces dev to save modern Sonic?

View attachment 189

As they were, Sonic Team was too tied down by corporate bullshit and having to follow the guidelines of what the suits felt a "Sonic game must be". They hand Iizuka a list of bullshit he has to comply with and he's gotta do it cause it's his job. It also results in well, bad Sonic games, but not because of his lack of effort or skill. You try shitting out Sonic Riders in that 1 year dev window. You gotta be kidding me blaming the guy that's had OUR backs and was the dude all stoked for Mania, did all the stuff to help make it happen, you trippin' son.

But the NEXT 3D Sonic game? A Sonic Team and Iizuka whose chains have been broken by Atlus and Mania's huge success? With people like the Mania team and Atlus helping out? Imagine if you will, a refreshed modern Sonic, with graphics and stylization ala Persona 5

Imagine a modern Sonic, with the animation and art stylings of Morgana from Persona 5



Now pair that with Atlus' understanding of 3D space that we've seen in games like Catherine.

Mix in some Taxman n Stealth for game play consultation, Brad Flick and Hunter for production styling and design?

Do you see this shit?
View attachment 190

Look at that smug expression on that mother fucker. Priceless, 10/10.

Atlus baby. They are our best shot to save modern Sonic. Together with a now free to make awesome shit Iizuka, his chains broken because no one wants to fuck with anything Atlus touches for fear of the massive back lash from Persona/Atlus fans? They could make the best 3D Sonic game ever made, by far.

All we need, is for Forces to fail. Miserably. As badly as possible. That will force the execs to listen. They won't be able to ignore the results of Mania and it's sales numbers.

So the real answer? Can modern Sonic be saved? Absolutely.

Sonic Forces just needs to fail. Miserably. That will start the chain reaction.

I'm not trying to hate on Forces mind you, I don't "want it to fail" out of some weird vindictive fanboyisims or anything. I just truly believe that it'll steer the series in a vastly superior direction, the worse it does. So as much as I usually want Sonic projects to be successful, in Forces case, not so much. The more the scales are tipped in the favor Tax n team, Atlus and Iizuka's aspirations VS the incredibly bad decisions often made out of pride or attempts at social posturing that 'the suits' keep pulling on us, the brighter Sonic's future. It wasn't because of Iizuka for example, that we didn't get a proper Saturn era Sonic game. It's the suits you guys. If Forces fails, they'll have no choice but to let the artists that are clearly bringing in the money finally do their fucking jobs again.
So....where do i sign to make forces fail? (?)
 

Arkenova

Queen of Shenanigans
Aug 29, 2017
32
22
38
34
East Coast USA
Atlus baby. They are our best shot to save modern Sonic. Together with a now free to make awesome shit Iizuka, his chains broken because no one wants to fuck with anything Atlus touches for fear of the massive back lash from Persona/Atlus fans? They could make the best 3D Sonic game ever made, by far.
Honestly, I'm glad that ATLUS is lending their hand with SEGA. Modern Sonic needs a do over with a new start and noting on how ATLUS is with their Persona games (especially with Persona 5, seriously holy crow. That's some GOOD stuff there.) , there's no doubt a light at the end of the tunnel leading off to better days.

Now, if we could have another Adventure-like game in the future with some decent pacing, storytelling and-oh wait.. am I going too far? X'D
 
Last edited:

That Fucking Fish

The dedicated fish of the team.
Aug 29, 2017
24
3
23
Chongqing, China
Honestly I feel like salvaging modern sonic is a lost cause. It was never designed to last, it never will last, and it was only a matter of time until something like mania came out to contrast and show people why modern sonic wasn't a good idea.
 

Arkenova

Queen of Shenanigans
Aug 29, 2017
32
22
38
34
East Coast USA
Honestly I feel like salvaging modern sonic is a lost cause. It was never designed to last, it never will last, and it was only a matter of time until something like mania came out to contrast and show people why modern sonic wasn't a good idea.
That's also true. Mania has set the bars exceptionally high on this issue though Modern Sonic feels like it should be around because the fanbase has grown to accept that. Even though some fans feels like Modern Sonic is a lost cause or not, I'm not judging. I appreciate both sides of the story.
 

Clouder

The one and only
Aug 29, 2017
49
33
28
I didn't even know ATLUS was influencing the Sonic series like that. It's definitely in good hands with them, at least. They know how to make a game.
 

ChaosFusion

Coffee Addict
Aug 29, 2017
11
9
23
Well at least from my perspective, As long as the level design is of the same quality as Unleashed(Jungle Joyride, Empire City, etc) and Generations(Sky Sanctuary, Seaside Hill), Modern Sonic doesn't need to really be saved but more used well.
With Forces though, I wish it had the same level of quality in it's level design as the previous two I mentioned though I guess life is made of little compromises.